<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="" style="display: inline !important;">Not really. What you need is an ability to provoke a pull.</span></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">Do people who want PUSH consider that it is possible to use interest as a notification to provoke a pull?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(Producer sends an interest to consumer to say, “hey, I have something for you, please fetch it.")</div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 15, 2016, at 9:55 AM, Dave Oran (oran) <<a href="mailto:oran@cisco.com" class="">oran@cisco.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">On Mar 15, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Ravi Ravindran <<a href="mailto:ravi.ravindran@gmail.com" class="">ravi.ravindran@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Another primitive that is missing in NDN/CCN is the need to PUSH content, most of the IoT and social networking applications requires this primitive.<br class=""></blockquote><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Not really. What you need is an ability to provoke a pull.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Today the solutions include using the long-lived interests or polling mechanisms which are not desirable, so if once such primitive is introduced this also questions the per-hop flow control objective.<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Not really. On the other hand it does require more aggressive congestion control on the Interest transmission.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Regards,<br class="">Ravi<br class=""><br class="">On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 4:09 PM, <<a href="mailto:Ignacio.Solis@parc.com" class="">Ignacio.Solis@parc.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">[ Disclaimer: CCN currently uses flow balance as well ]<br class=""><br class="">The current Hop-by-Hop Flow Balance is nonsense.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">On 3/10/16, 11:46 PM, "Ndn-interest on behalf of Alex Afanasyev" <<a href="mailto:ndn-interest-bounces@lists.cs.ucla.edu" class="">ndn-interest-bounces@lists.cs.ucla.edu</a> on behalf of <a href="mailto:aa@cs.ucla.edu" class="">aa@CS.UCLA.EDU</a>> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">[6] **Hop-by-Hop Flow Balance**:<br class=""> Over each link, one interest packet should bring back no more than one data packet.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">Seriously, who thinks this actually works?<br class=""><br class="">Let me quote the webpage ( <a href="http://named-data.net/project/ndn-design-principles/" class="">http://named-data.net/project/ndn-design-principles/</a> ):<br class="">"[6] Hop-by-Hop Flow Balancing: Over each link, one interest packet should bring back no more than one data packet.<br class="">Hop-by-hop flow balancing enables each node to control load over its links. By deciding to sending interest over a link, router commits bandwidth for the returned data. By limiting the number of interests sent, each router and client node in the network control how much data it will receive.<br class="">"<br class=""><br class="">Either there is a lot of information missing here to justify why this is so, or this is very naïve.<br class=""><br class="">First, if what you want to do is limit the number of content objects (or packets) returned, you don’t need to send one interest. _Specially_ for NDN, which has prefix matching, you could send one interest with a count number (10) and expect to receive 10 content objects back. There is no reason why I need to send 10 exact copies of the same interest. Even if the interests had small variations, why send 10? Why not send 1 + the 10 deltas? I guess it’s possible you may call that part of the “network adaptation layer”, who knows.<br class=""><br class="">Also by requiring 1-to-1, you are always requiring an overhead (on the requester side) that is quite high. If you think of today’s type of networks, where a packet (internet sized) is around 1500 bytes, that means that even if we send interests of 30 bytes, we are incurring quite a bit of overhead in the upstream. This becomes considerable when doing high bandwidth video.<br class=""><br class="">Please explain why the 1-to-1 is good.<br class=""><br class="">Second, NDN allows very large packet sizes. So, when I send 1 interest, I don’t now if what I’m going to get back is 1 byte or 18 exabytes. How do routers use this information to control how much data they’re going to receive? Are they going to reserve 18 exabytes of traffic time?<br class=""><br class="">If this principle were to be re-written as:<br class="">“Allow network nodes to participate in flow control” then the actual engineering solution might be able to achieve this.<br class=""><br class="">Finally, at least we should acknowledge the limitations this type of approach requires; like symmetrical forwarding.<br class=""><br class="">It would be awkward if the only way for NDN to work over Satellite links would be to break the principles.<br class=""><br class="">Nacho<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">PS. Yes, there are people in this community who have looked at other ways to do flow-balance and flow-control. Maybe we should be learning from those and not just claiming as principle what we do today because we don’t want it questioned.<br class=""><br class="">--<br class="">Nacho (Ignacio) Solis<br class="">Protocol Architect<br class="">Principal Scientist<br class="">Palo Alto Research Center (PARC)<br class="">+1(650)812-4458<br class=""><a href="mailto:Ignacio.Solis@parc.com" class="">Ignacio.Solis@parc.com</a><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Ndn-interest mailing list<br class="">Ndn-interest@lists.cs.ucla.edu<br class="">http://www.lists.cs.ucla.edu/mailman/listinfo/ndn-interest<br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">Ndn-interest mailing list<br class="">Ndn-interest@lists.cs.ucla.edu<br class="">http://www.lists.cs.ucla.edu/mailman/listinfo/ndn-interest<br class=""></blockquote><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Ndn-interest mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:Ndn-interest@lists.cs.ucla.edu" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Ndn-interest@lists.cs.ucla.edu</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="http://www.lists.cs.ucla.edu/mailman/listinfo/ndn-interest" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://www.lists.cs.ucla.edu/mailman/listinfo/ndn-interest</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>